My fortnight in pictures

I’m sorry for being a bad blogger lately. My excuses are many: we’ve been busy with visitors and travel, I’ve been ‘using up’ all my writing juices on my promotion portfolio (due September 5), and not much has been happening on the infertility front.

Rather than a long, disjointed ‘catch up’ post, I bring you my fortnight in pictures:

1) Got these beautiful flowers from my mom’s college roommate. She suffered with unexplained infertility for 10 years before having two amazing children, now grown.

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2) Did lot of head scratching mid-month. My fertility monitor (which reads the lower stick) never gave a peak reading this month. (It never even gave a ‘high’ reading!) But the cheap-o OPK (upper stick) did give a positive, so we moved ahead with our plan to do natural cycle IUI.

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3) I snapped this shot just after insemination. As you can see, I forgot my lucky socks. 😦 I put a pair in my glove compartment now so I’ll be prepared next time!

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4) Here’s a selfie of me before giving the sperm to the nurse to wash it. I think the recommendation of sticking the ‘sample’ in my bra to keep it warm in transit probably works better for bustier women than me…

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5) I’m proud to say that I’ve been running regularly, thanks to my sister’s nagging encouragement. Nothing anywhere near my marathon days (my longest recent run was 4.3 miles), but it adds up after awhile. I’m just proud to be doing something active again!

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6) A view from one of my runs… Makes me wonder how on earth I waited so long to run again!

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7) C and I decided to take a trip to northern Sonoma for some wine tasting. We stopped on the way up to enjoy the view.

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8) Funny enough, this is about as close as we got to any wineries on our ‘wine trip’.

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9) Instead of wine tasting, we spent a lot of time beer tasting at Russian River and Bear Republic (below), two of our favorite breweries. I didn’t manage to snap any pictures at Russian River – probably because we were enjoying the beer and company too much! (Our friend M is a brewer there and he and his wife J gave us the deluxe tour.)

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10) Aunt Flo showed her ugly face yesterday morning. For what it’s worth, it didn’t catch me off guard, since I’ve started charting again. Anyway, how could I be sad when I’ve got this joker to cheer me up back at home?

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Old procrastinating reneger

I have a confession to make. I’ve been procrastinating from writing a sequel to my post on Supplements. I’m long overdue on an entry about antioxidants (a category that includes most of the pills I’m taking).  I’ve been working on it off and on for a few weeks, but just can’t seem to find the motivation to finish it!

In place of that post (for now), here are a few odds and ends:

1)      I forgot to mention that Dr. Y gave me copies of all my medical records at my appointment on Monday. I had asked for these to send to CCRM in advance of my upcoming phone consultation. Of course, I couldn’t resist the temptation to read the records in detail. Most of it seemed run-of-the mill but I noticed two things that caught me off guard. The first was that I was listed as having a diagnosis of “secondary infertility”. I thought this term referred to people who already had one or more kids. Does one early miscarriage really mean I don’t qualify as “primary infertility”? The other surprise was that the embryology report listed me as having “Advanced Maternal Age”. I’m 34. I thought I had at least a few more months before graduating to the “Advanced Maternal Age” club. I did a Google search and learned that apparently the definition applies to women who are 35 or older at the time of childbirth. So apparently I do belong…assuming I ever get pregnant. I feel old! (No offense…)

2)      AF arrived today, making this a whopping 18-day cycle. (Has anybody else had such a short cycle after egg retrieval?) Anyway, that leads me to believe that my fertility monitor was actually working properly, and I didn’t ovulate this month. We’ll try natural IUI again next month…

3)      I planned poorly and just realized that I am going to be a bad ICLW-er this week. Tomorrow we’re leaving for a camping trip to Pinecrest in northern California. I just learned that they don’t have WiFi or reliable cell service, so I’m probably not going to be able to blog or comment until I get back next Wednesday. I’ve been trying to ‘bank’ lots of extra comments in the first half of the week, but I still feel like a schmuck for reneging on my commitment… Sorry!

Have a great week everybody!

Message to my fertile friends

Not too much has been happening here. We finally finished up the 10-week summer research session, and I am officially “off” for the rest of the summer. (By “off,” I mean I get to sit on my couch in my PJs working on my promotion portfolio and prepping for fall classes…) It’s nice.

As many of you know, our current plan, in the wake of failed IVF#1, is to spend three months trying to improve egg quality through supplements, while also doing natural cycle IUIs. I’ve been using my CBFM, and was supposed to call the office to schedule insemination as soon as the monitor indicated impending ovulation (by displaying a little egg). We also made a just-in-case appointment for cycle day 16, in the event that the egg never appeared in the monitor window.

Today was cycle day 16, so I went in for that just-in-case appointment. The dildo cam showed no lead follicle: either this is an anovulatory cycle, or we missed ovulation. (Once again, I find myself regretting getting lazy on the BBT charting; if I had kept up, I’d know for sure which it is.) But I’m actually not that disappointed. There’s a very slim chance that we could get pregnant this month, but if not, I’m fine trying again next month.

I’ve also been dutifully taking my long list of supplements. While I have definitely NOT been “living like a monk,” I have been trying to eat well whenever possible. I’ve cut back on coffee, Diet Coke and alcohol – to 2-3 servings of each per week…instead of 1-2 servings per day. (Shoot! Does that make me sound like a lush? I just like my nightly glass of wine!) Thanks to my sister’s persistence, I’ve also started running again. We’ve gone three times in the last week; it’s only been 2.5 to 3 miles each time, but a huge improvement over the absolutely nothing that I’ve been doing for the last year and a half…

*****

But the real reason for this post is that I got an email this week that was equal parts delightful and heartbreaking, and made me want to think carefully about how my words are received.

I hope A will forgive me for sharing parts of her email here:

Hi K,

I’ve been following your blog and seeing that things are not going as you might have wanted.  I’m sorry.  I also realize you sometimes feel ‘ill-will’ according to one of your previous posts about people who have some success.  Knowing that — I still need to tell you …

that we are 18 weeks pregnant and close to going ‘facebook public.’  I didn’t want you to find out on facebook. What you’re going through is emotionally and physically draining, but as you well know — I don’t really know… I don’t understand — regardless of how much I think I might or try.  It’s very personal and I’m really happy for you that you’ve found a support network of women through your blog who do understand.  It’s also wonderful to read about how your relationship with ‘C’ has strengthened and deepened through this difficult time.

…Anyway, I’m emailing you because I didn’t want you to be surprised on facebook and wanted to tell you that you do not need to respond.

I look forward to seeing you again (someday) and I am always thinking happy, reproductive, follicular, warm fuzzy thoughts in your direction.  🙂

Your friend,

A

This message was delightful, because I’m so happy for my friend, who had been trying for awhile for a second child, and suffered a sad loss shortly before ours. I was also deeply touched that she had given so much thought and time to writing such a compassionate message.

It was heartbreaking that such an amazing friend could possibly think I might feel the slightest bit of ill-will towards her or her baby.

So this message is intended for my fertile friends. (The sentiment is equally true for my ‘lucky’ infertile bloggy friends who are now expecting.)

When I shared my blog with you, I made a choice to let you in on my most personal, raw, and unfiltered thoughts. I didn’t do this by accident. It was a sign of just how much I love and trust you.

So, please believe me when I say that I do not, will not bear you or your children any ill-will.

  • If you decide to outdo the Duggars and have 30 kids,
  • If, in your genuine attempts to comfort me you say all the wrong things,
  • If you go on to have an absolutely perfect life full of glitter and unicorn farts with your gorgeous brood of children,*

I will NOT bear you any ill will.

Believe me. It’s the truth. (And if you know me well enough for me to have shared this blog with you, then you know that I’m a terrible liar!)

Now, you may wonder, to whom do I direct all my anti-fertility ill will? Most fall into one of the following groups:

  1. Anonymous pregnant women that I see everywhere. Yes, I know. It’s totally unfair. I have no idea what they’ve been through, or the kind of parents they’ll be. I’m sure if I meet them in the future, I’ll be happy for them then. But for now, I hate them.
  2. People I never liked in the first place. If they never bothered to make time for me or show the slightest interest in developing a friendship before they were pregnant, then I feel no obligation to wish them well in their baby-making efforts now.
  3. Bad parents. These include stupid and/or oversharing parents (STFU, Parents has all the examples you never wanted to know), neglectful-to-abusive parents (Tan Mom gets to be fertile? Seriously?), and truly evil ones (The rumor that World’s Worst Mom Casey Anthony is pregnant again may have been a hoax, but that doesn’t change the fact that she never deserved to be a mom in the first place!)

As you can see, there is no shortage of targets for my infertility bitterness and ill-will.

You, dear reader, are not one of them!

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* References to glitter and unicorn farts are shamelessly stolen from the amazing Jenny at Stupid Stork.

Infertility math*

This post was primarily inspired by a recent, lovely post by Jane at Mine to Command who confronted the myth that stress causes infertility. She delves into the medical literature on the subject, so I won’t provide my own (undoubtedly less eloquent) rehashing of what she’s said there. Go read it! Then come back, if you like.

The myth that stress causes infertility is a pervasive one. And, its logical consequence – namely, that infertiles should “Just relax, and you’ll get pregnant – has lead to a laundry list of charming little chestnuts of advice including:

  • Just adopt, and you’ll get pregnant.
  • Go on vacation, and you’ll get pregnant.
  • Get drunk, and you’ll get pregnant.
  • Don’t try so hard, and you’ll get pregnant.

and so on…

This myth originated – and continues to be fueled – by the observation that indeed many infertile couples get pregnant when they stop trying.

Although I’m not a medical practitioner and haven’t consulted the scientific literature on this particular topic, my intuition (aided by some basic mathematical understanding) tells me that this observation is probably true: many infertiles do get pregnant when they “aren’t actively trying”.

Before you chase after me with torches and pitchforks, please let me explain…

While I do think that the probability of getting pregnant while not “trying” is significant (in some cases rivaling the probability of getting pregnant through medical intervention), the often-touted “logical consequence” of this observation – that infertiles should stop trying to get pregnant…in order to get pregnant – is complete and total hooey!

I’m a chemist, but I nearly minored in math. I’m particularly grateful that I took statistics (both math stats and biostatistics), which comes in quite handy in situations like this…

So, why do so many couples get pregnant when they aren’t actively trying?

As Jane pointed out, this is kind of a silly question. Anybody who is having sex without birth control is, on some level, trying to get pregnant. So immaculate conception and birth control failures aside, everyone who gets pregnant is technically trying. But any infertile knows that there’s a wide spectrum of “trying”, all the way from “pulling the goalie” (aka unprotected intercourse) to spending tens-of-thousands of dollars for the privilege of being poked with needles, pumped full of hormones, subjected to minor and/or major surgery, and violated on a regular basis by an ultrasound wand, among other things…

Statistics provided by reproductive endocrinologists – the infertility experts – tell us that our odds of conceiving are significantly increased by all these interventions. Consider the following per-cycle odds of conception for several common interventions:

Intervention Per-cycle odds of conceiving** Source
timed intercourse 5% Health.com
natural cycle IUI 5-10% Babycenter.com
medicated IUI Up to 20% Babycenter.com
IVF 46% SART

I couldn’t find any odds for “not trying”, but I think it’s safe to say that they would be less than 5% per cycle.

So, how on earth is it possible that so many infertile couples get pregnant after they’ve stopped trying, even though their odds are so much less – more than 9 times less compared to IVF?

The key words here are per cycle. The odds, per cycle, of success from IVF are nine times that for timed intercourse (and >9 times that for ‘not trying’). But how many cycles of IVF do people actually do? Looking around the blogosphere, I can find lots of examples of people who have done IVF two, three, four times. But at over $10K a pop, few people have the financial means (or an IVF clinic willing to risk hurting its SART stats) to do many more cycles than that.

On the other hand, an infertile couple might have 5-, 10-, 20-years of “not trying” to get pregnant. For a woman who ovulates regularly every 28-days, that corresponds to as many as 65, 130, or 260 cycles of not actively trying to get pregnant.

So, how do we do the math to figure out the odds of getting pregnant by “not trying” versus using a technology such as IVF?

Let’s take an example of a couple that tried IVF three times unsuccessfully, adopted a child, then had unprotected sex for ten years:

First, let’s calculate their odds of a pregnancy resulting from three rounds of IVF. (In statistics, it’s actually slightly easier to calculate the odds of something not happening, and then to convert that to the odds of that thing happening…)

  • According to SART, the average odds of a pregnancy resulting from one cycle of IVF for a woman under 35 are 46%. We can express this value as the decimal 0.46.
  • That means the odds of not getting pregnant from one IVF cycle are 100-46 = 54% or 0.54.
  • The odds of not getting pregnant after two rounds of IVF are 0.54 x 0.54 = 0.29 or 29%.
  • The odds of not getting pregnant after three rounds of IVF are 0.54 x 0.54 x 0.54 (or 0.54 to the third power, 0.54^3), which equals 0.16 or 16%.
  • Now, to get the probability of a pregnancy resulting from three IVF cycles, we just subtract from 100% the probability of not getting pregnant: 100-16 = 84%. (Not bad odds! It seems our hypothetical couple – like many of us – was on the unlucky side of these stats…)

Now let’s calculate the odds of getting pregnant from ten years of unprotected sex.

  • For the sake of argument, I’m going to estimate that the couple’s per-cycle odds of pregnancy are a mere 1% (0.01). (Given that the per cycle odds for infertile couples practicing timed intercourse is estimated at 5%, I think 1% odds for “not trying” is actually pretty conservative…as long as the couple is having sex…) If the odds of a pregnancy are 1%, that means the odds of not getting pregnant are 99% or 0.99 per cycle.
  • The odds of not being pregnant after two cycles are 0.99 x 0.99 = 0.98, or 98%.
  • The odds of not being pregnant after three cycles are 0.99^3 = 0.97. In other words, there is only a 3% chance of a pregnancy resulting from three cycles of “not trying” – not even close to the 84% odds from three cycles of IVF.

Like interest on a long-held bank account, things start to get interesting as these paltry odds compound over large numbers of cycles…

  • The odds of not being pregnant after 13 cycles (one year) are 0.99 to the thirteenth power (0.99^13) or 88%. That means the odds of a pregnancy resulting from those 13 cycles is 12% (100 – 88 = 12). In other words, more than one tenth of “infertile” couples will be pregnant after a year of “not trying”. (Thereby supplying ample anecdotal “evidence” for annoying fertiles to misinterpret and hold up to their infertile friends…)
  • The odds of not being pregnant after 130 cycles (0.99^130) are 0.27, or 27%.

In other words, after ten years of “not trying”, this “infertile” couple had a 73% chance of achieving at least one pregnancy. (And remember, that pregnancy could occur randomly at any time during the ten years of not trying…)

How do you suppose most people interpret this series of events?

The facts: a couple failed to get pregnant from three rounds of IVF, adopted a child, and then got pregnant after a few years of not actively trying to get pregnant.

I can think of a couple of likely interpretations:

“After becoming parents through adoption, they were finally able to “just relax” and get pregnant!”

“In adopting, they were able to resolve the karmic imbalance that had previously interfered with their attempts at pregnancy!”

Nonsense! The real reason is far less romantic:

Over the course of many years of regular unprotected sex (albeit without officially “trying”), chances are that at least once, healthy sperm would meet with healthy egg at the right time to fertilize, and travel through the fallopian tube to find a uterus in just the right condition for implantation.

As Jane would say, “it was just their time.”

For women with diminished ovarian reserve (like me) the odds of conceiving by IVF are far below the 46% average I used in the example above (see this post for the depressing stats). Yet it’s not known how significantly DOR affects our chances of success through natural conception (which only requires one good egg each month…) In such cases, it’s easy for me to believe that the odds of conceiving from 100+ cycles of “not trying” could exceed the odds of conceiving from a handful of IVF cycles!

Am I saying we should all “just relax” and abandon assisted reproductive technologies?

No way! I can think of several good reasons to take a more aggressive approach:

  1. I don’t want to wait ten years to have a decent chance at a pregnancy! (Since I didn’t start until 33, I don’t even have 10 years of trying left in my old lady ovaries anyway…) I want my child yesterday! I want to change her diapers, not ask her to change mine. ART gives me the best odds of a child soon!
  2. Unlike in my simplified example, our odds of success are not static. My odds of pregnancy with my eggs – whether via ART or natural conception – are decreasing every month. With that fact hanging over me, it’s hard to justify waiting around for years for a natural conception. I can always try (or “not try”) for a natural conception after trying other family-building options (IVF, adoption, etc.) But ten years from now, if natural conception doesn’t work, I can’t go backwards and do IVF (at least not with my own eggs, which will have long dried up by then…)
  3. It’s not an either/or situation. If the odds of a pregnancy in my hypothetical example were 84% for three rounds of IVF, or 73% for 130 cycles of “not trying”, the total probability of a pregnancy – given that this hypothetical couple used both methods – was an almost unbelievable 96%! (1 – 0.16 x 0.27 = 0.96). Carefully timing intercourse instead of “not trying” should increase the odds further. Trying a combination of aggressive treatment (using ART) and regular unprotected intercourse will give me the very best odds of a biological child.
  4. There’s comfort in knowing that I’ve “tried everything”. If things don’t work out, and I end up on the unlucky end of all these statistics, at least I won’t wonder whether I might have been a genetic parent, “if only I’d tried X…” I’d rather go ‘all in’ now, and then move on to the next family-building option (or child-free living) without regrets.

As you’ve probably figured out by now, my plan is to continue with high-tech treatment…and to break out the Marvin Gaye around ovulation time every month in between!

It’s a plan that will mean a lot of two-week waits,…

a lot of peeing on sticks,…

and charting temps,…

and reading signs…

You’ll understand if I get tired of all the effort and decide to “take a break” and skip the meticulous timing for a few months…

And if, by chance, I happen to get pregnant that cycle,…

For heaven’s sake, DON’T use me as an example of how you “know this girl who got pregnant as soon as she stopped trying!”

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*I can’t write about Infertility Math without acknowledging this brilliant post by Aramis at It Only Takes One.

**Odds shown are for infertile couples (that is, couples who have been trying unsuccessfully for at least a year) in which the woman is less than 35 years old. Other factors can dramatically change these odds. For example, when fertile couples are included, the per-cycle odds are much higher – as high as 25% per cycle for timed intercourse. For older women, the per-cycle odds are lower in each case. Also, note that these stats show approximate pregnancy rates. The live birth rates are (sadly) lower due to miscarriage…

This and that

AF arrived yesterday, so I went to see Dr. Y for a baseline ultrasound this morning. While we are waiting for my supplements to take effect, we figured it couldn’t hurt to do a few cycles of natural IUI. (As C puts it, “so we can feel like we’re doing something…”) Originally, Dr. Y had suggested taking Clomid during the IUI cycles, but I had second thoughts about pumping my body with drugs when I’m supposedly trying to use acupuncture, supplements and diet to achieve a monastic zen-like state that will maximize the quality of my remaining eggs (or something like that…) Dr. Y quickly jumped on board with the plan, especially since he spotted a large ovarian cyst on ultrasound. The cyst would have precluded using any drugs anyway, so natural cycle it is!

The plan is for me to use an over-the-counter ovulation predictor kit (I’ll probably just stick with my CBFM) to detect my natural LH surge, and then to call the office to schedule insemination (aka turkey baster) the next day. The way I figure it, each month we get a chance (however small) that this egg might be ‘the good one’. If this month’s is the good egg, delivering C’s little swimmers directly to my uterus might slightly increase the chance that it gets fertilized.

Plus, summer research is almost over, so I’ve got time to kill. And Kaiser covers it. So, why not?

*****

I went to my second Resolve meeting last week. It was awesome. I got a lot of support in my decision to schedule a phone consultation at CCRM. More importantly, I also got a healthy dose of “it could be worse.”

Not that anybody would have said anything so insensitive, but hearing stories from my sisters in infertility helped remind me that, crappy as DOR is, it is not the worst diagnosis possible. The fact remains that C & I still have one very good option – IVF with donor eggs. Yes, it would mean giving up on genetic offspring (those adorable little hapa babies with my nose and C’s hand-eye coordination…) But it would bring our odds of success with IVF up to 70% or more per cycle. It would also ‘stop the clock’ on our fertility issues, meaning that we could have as many kids as we want, and time them as far apart as we want (well, almost… I think legit clinics refuse to transfer once I turn 50…) And our risk for age-related chromosomal issues would drop to whatever they are for our twenty-something donor.

Oh, and while I’m counting my blessings, I should probably mention that we are in the fortunate position of being able to afford egg donation as an option. (The same might not be said for a gestational carrier, which runs around $100K per try. So, we’re thankful that my uterus seems to be in good shape!)

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not giving up on my eggs just yet, but it’s nice to know that we have a good option tucked away in the sock drawer, waiting for us to pull it out whenever we’re ready. It’s also nice to know that there will be a great group of gals (and guys) down in the trenches with us who will support us, whichever path we choose.

*****

Last but not least, I got the sweetest gift from our fertile friends, S & Q. (These are the same ‘thoughtful ninjas’ who dropped off gorgeous flowers the night before a doctors visit, and a delicious care package of tasty treats on retrieval day.) Last week, the ninjas struck again, this time leaving this St. Gerard keychain:

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(It was timely, as I got it a few hours after reading this post by Risa at Who Shot Down My Stork? about the St. Gerard medal she got from a friend.)

As many of you know, I’m a practicing Roman Catholic (which I wrote about here), and St. Gerard is the Patron Saint of Motherhood. The Church uses a rather broad definition of motherhood here, including expectant mothers and mother-wannabes like me; as a result, couples trying to conceive will often pray to St. Gerard. (Another option is St. Gianna Beretta Molla, Patron Saint of Mothers, Unborn Children, and Physicians.) For any of you who are Catholic (or just willing to try anything at this point), here’s a common Prayer to St. Gerard:

O good St. Gerard, powerful intercessor before God

and Wonder-worker of our day,

I call on you and seek your help.

You who on earth did always fulfill God’s design,

help me to do the Holy Will of God.

Beseech the Master of Life,

from whom all paternity proceeded,

to make me fruitful in offspring,

that I may raise up children to God in this life

and heirs to the Kingdom of His glory

in the world to come. Amen.

Turkey baster day!

Today, C. and I went in to the clinic to get this turkey basted (that is, for intrauterine insemination or IUI). Here’s what was involved:

  1. C. prepared his sample right before we left for the clinic, then kept it warm in his pocket during our drive. (It takes a half hour for it to ‘liquefy’ prior to washing.)
  2. We arrived at the clinic and waited. This part was long enough to stress us out a bit, since the specimen is supposed to be processed within an hour.
  3. Once in the back, we handed over the sample to the nurse and signed a form stating that it was indeed from C.
  4. We waited again, this time for the doctor (Dr. H.) to ‘wash’ the sperm. More about that in a minute…
  5. Dr. H. came in, and confirmed again that the sample was indeed from C. (After being asked again, we started to actually worry! What if our sample got mixed up with one of the people in the waiting room?…) She complemented C. on his excellent sample. (She counted 78 million sperm per milliliter upon arrival, and 30 million ‘good swimmers’ that made it through the washing procedure and to the final sample. This raised our confidence that they were actually C.’s! 😉 ) Then she explained what was going to happen.
  6. The next part started like a pap smear: me in stirrups, mildly uncomfortable; doctor inserted speculum then swabbed my cervix with a big Q-tip… Then out came the turkey baster! (Actually it looked more like a syringe with a little tube…)
  7. After the basting was done, Dr. H. tilted the bed back and left me there for ~30 minutes to let gravity help the little guys along.
  8. She reiterated the advice to BD tomorrow, just to be sure. And that was it!

The whole thing really wasn’t bad! No cramping at all. (Dr. H. told me I have a ‘quiet uterus’. I guess that makes sense; they’ve had two geriatric ovaries for neighbors this whole time…)

The sperm washing part was interesting to me, since it involves organic chemistry. 🙂 So, why wash sperm?

Aside from the high quality ‘Michael Phelps’ sperm cells, semen also contains slower-moving or dysfunctional sperm, prostaglandins, and bacteria (ew!) The cervix normally acts as a natural ‘qualifying round’ to keep out everybody except those super-swimmers. Since IUI bypasses the cervix, another gatekeeper is needed – hence the sperm ‘washing’.

Here’s the chemical structure of the two major prostaglandins in semen. Prostaglandins are made from fatty acids (hence the long chains on the right side), and always have a five-membered ring.

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Prostaglandins stimulate muscle contractions, which might be good when you’re trying to help sperm get into the uterus (or if you’re 42 weeks pregnant and trying to induce labor – not exactly something I’ve had to worry about…), but if inserted directly into the uterus, the prostaglandins can cause severe cramping, vomiting, fever, and diarrhea. Not so nice.

The next step for me is a progesterone blood test on Wednesday, followed by progesterone suppositories to support a pregnancy (in case there is one!)

Ever the pessimists, we also scheduled an IVF consultation with Dr. Y. so that we have a clear idea of our options if this doesn’t work. Hopefully we won’t need it!